What I wrote before the interview: As another war-filled week ends, all I want is for the bombing to stop. I'm pretty opinionated and obviously angry about what Putin is doing to Ukraine. I've said loudly that I think we should be doing everything possible to stop that Russian madman from killing more innocent people. And when I saw everything, I mean everything. Watching the news is excruciating. But there are many friends and allies who disagree with me... they think we should do all we can do, to a point. They're rabidly against using military force to stop Putin. So, I thought today, we should hear their arguments. I couldn't think of a better messenger than my old friend David Swanson. I met him when he was advocating for impeaching George W Bush over his illegal war in Iraq. He is an author, activist, journalist, and radio host. He is executive director of World BEYOND War and campaign coordinator for RootsAction.org. Swanson’s books include War Is A Lie and When the World Outlawed War. He blogs at DavidSwanson.org and WarIsACrime.org. He hosts Talk World Radio on many Pacifica stations. And he wrote a piece a few days ago, "30 Nonviolent Things Russia Could Have Done, and 30 Nonviolent Things Ukraine Could Do" that prompted this conversation. We'll talk, we'll likely disagree, but we'll do it respectfully...

What I say after: He wants to give Vladimir Putin everything he wants because Putin is blackmailing the world with his nukes. That was not a fun interview, but have a listen...